DAIL DEBATE

Criminal Justice(United Nations Convention Against Torture)
Bill 1998

Take Number: K

Next Take Number: L

Forum

DÁIL ÉIREANN

Sitting Time

Sitting Date

12:00 (12 o'clock)

7 October 1999

Text:

Mr. Kelleher: I thank my colleague, Deputy Ryan, for sharing his time and I welcome the publication and introduction of this Bill. While it has been a long time coming, as speakers have said, it is here at long last and the delay was no fault of the Minister. The UN agreed the convention in 1984, it was adopted as a policy in 1987 and we are now debating the Bill.

Over the last few years, particularly in Europe, we have seen horrific and heinous crimes perpetrated against massive numbers of people. As a young parliamentarian I was concerned about the inactivity of Europe and its inability to decide how to deal with problems on our doorsteps. In Bosnia and Croatia the EU was unable to make a single policy decision on dealing with these appalling atrocities. It is only now that we are discovering some of what happened in those dark days. We must examine this issue urgently because, no matter what legislation we pass and what action is taken by countries with huge resources like the US, the EU must have a proper foreign policy so that it can issue a statement and indicate clearly what it wants the UN to do and what action it will take. Thus far we have been unable to do that and we must address this seriously.

While the EU is a single financial bloc in many ways, some countries within it have a foreign policy which is driven by financial interests. We must acknowledge and deal with this quickly. No one thought the events in Bosnia could happen again, people thought it was the final barbaric act of the 20th century as we move into the third millennium, but we now find the same people persecuting the Kosovans. We have difficulties on our doorstep but are singularly unable to deal with them.

Many people slate American imperialistic thinking. I would question some aspects of American foreign policy, particularly in South America, but in Europe the US has had to lead the way in resolving problems. People may ask whether there was a financial factor or why the Americans became involved. I believe the US is a democratic state and in general it tries to uphold what is sees as a democratic society, with freedom of expression, capitalism, etc. Some people in this House and this country are quick to jump on the anti-American bandwagon but that nation has often had to take the lead in resolving problems in Europe which we were singularly unable to deal with.

On the Bill, Deputy Ryan outlined incidents of torture. Perhaps the Minister could respond to my concern that, as Argentina was a haven for the Nazis, so Ireland could become a haven for people who committed crimes in Bosnia, Croatia and elsewhere, should we find that this Bill does not apply retrospectively to the passing of the UN convention in 1984.

It is positive legislation but the difficulty is that resources are often not made available. For example, the UN promised an independence plebiscite to the people of East Timor. The people answered that call and voted in vast numbers, but they were tortured, driven from their homes, watched their houses being destroyed, and were forced into the mountains while the UN failed to act. People in non-governmental organisations forewarned about huge problems in this area if the UN did not have a military presence to ensure the elections took place in a fair and free manner, without hindrance, and maintained that presence afterwards in case the Indonesian militias did not accept a result in favour of independence. Everyone on the ground thought this would happen, yet after promising the independence plebiscite and providing some personnel, the UN failed to provide military protection to ensure that those who exercised their democratic right would not be forced from their homes and their country or would not be tortured and killed. Documentary evidence of genocide is still being uncovered.

If we are serious about ensuring this legislations is implemented and sending a strong message to those who commit war crimes and atrocities we must do so in an aggressive manner so that they will be brought to justice. There is not much point in saying Slobodan Milosevic perpetrated crimes against humanity, forgetting it in a few years and allowing him return to civilised society. Those who commit war crimes must be made accountable. The only way to do this is to ensure no safe havens are available to them.

I have serious reservations about financial sanctions. Financial sanctions were imposed on Iraq yet I am confident that none of Saddam Husein’s revolutionary guar ever lacked food or antibiotics. Millions of Iraqis are suffering because of severe sanctions. The regime will never suffer because if it oppresses its people it does not mind if they go hungry. We need to examine how we try to undermine regimes perpetrating torture. Is it beneficial to enforce sanctions? Perhaps it would be more enlightened to use the media to expose such regimes and to encourage people by pointing out what is happening in the free world. Financial sanctions are a form of torture. They have not worked in most cases and lead to greater suffering.

In this country we are no strangers to punishment beatings and torture. For a number of years so-called punishment beatings have been carried out by republican and loyalist paramilitaries in the six counties. These actions are beginning to creep into large cities here. Deputy Howlin who spoke about his constituency and there have been incidents in Cork City where a group of people claiming to be community activists marched on peoples houses and intimidated them. Although some of those people have been or will be prosecuted for dealing drugs etc., such actions are still a challenge to the State and the law. This must be looked at. The State has neglected large urban housing estates. We are now acknowledging this and trying to do something about it.

The most important message is that the law is there to be enforced by the Garda or the State, not by individuals who use baseball bats to punish those dealing drugs. This is unacceptable and is a serious matter. It must be dealt with in a forth-right matter. While I deviate from the thrust of the Bill, this is an issue of torture. Individuals are setting themselves up a self-styled community policing groups and acting outside the law by punishing and torturing people. I compliment the Minister in the introduction of this legislation. I hope it has a speedy passage and that its provisions will ensure Ireland is seen by the international community as a place where human rights are upheld for everyone.