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DAIL DEBATE
National Monumanets (Amend) Bill - Second Stage
DÁIL ÉIREANN
Mr. Kelleher: I welcome the chance to discuss the Bill. Although it is narrow in its focus - Carrickmines - we must take a broader focus on public transport and development of our road and rail infrastructure. I take issue with Deputy Eamon Ryan. Most of the people I see on the roads are members of the public. The roads are a form of public transport and we cannot dismiss the fact that the vast majority of people are forced to travel by road because we do not have a proper rail or bus infrastructure. We must realise that people are entitled to quality public transport. That does not just mean rail and bus services but a proper road infrastructure. There is a sense from the Green Party and others that the only public transport mechanisms are rail and bus services. The facts are that we do not have this major investment in those services yet, although we are slowly getting there, and people must get from A to B. At present, the development of a proper road structure, in conjunction with developing rail and bus networks, is probably the cheapest way to do that. The tone of the debate today and for many years is that as soon as it is proposed to build anything, an objection is lodged. Often those objections come from the Green Party, which objects to almost everything possible. It objects to roads, golf courses----- Mr. Eamon Ryan: We wanted the Metro and Luas extensions. Mr. Kelleher: ---high-rise developments and rezoning. People in Dublin in particular should ask Deputy Ryan where they are to live. Where can they live? If we adopted Green Party policy we would rezone no lands, we would not allow high-rise developments and we would run out of land very quickly. While we have difficulties with high housing prices at present, if the Deputy's policies were pursued, exorbitant cost factors would be built into house prices. Mr. Eamon Ryan: I would develop Cork , Galway and Limerick . Would the Deputy object to that? Mr. Kelleher: I would welcome that but to develop Cork , Galway and Limerick we would have to rezone lands. There were major objections in those cities to rezoning potential. It seems to be part and parcel of Green Party policy that regardless of merit, there is an automatic objection to any development, be it student accommodation or high-rise apartments. I could list a myriad objections. We have an obligation to protect the past but we are also obliged to develop a proper infrastructure in this country to allow people to have a decent standard of living. This generation also needs to leave a legacy behind it. We must protect the past but we also have an obligation to ensure that, in the future, people can look back and say that decisions made in the 21st century were meritorious, positive and dynamic. If we live in the past, protecting it without ever looking to the future, then we would have a very dull, grey society. Deputy Eamon Ryan spoke of journeys on which people find themselves. People will find themselves stuck at bad corners on dangerous roads with no potential to progress. The legislation only focuses on the M50 at Carrickmines but the broader thrust of the Government and society is to develop a dynamic economic policy which provides people with a good quality of life. Deputy Ryan's version of quality of life may be slightly different to mine but sitting in a lay-by between Cork and Dublin----- Mr. Eamon Ryan: Sitting in traffic jams destroys quality of life and they result from road building. Mr. Kelleher: As one travels between Cork and Dublin , I assure the Deputy the Rock of Cashel is a beautiful sight but I do not want to sit outside Cashel in a traffic jam for half an hour admiring it. I would prefer to take the new ring road to avoid the town and look at it from a distance. Mr. Eamon Ryan: Cashel is an enjoyable one and a half hour train ride from Dublin or Cork . Mr. Kelleher: If I want to visit the Rock of Cashel, I will be able to leave the bypass and enter the town. Traffic must be taken out of towns to improve quality of life. Mr. Eamon Ryan: I am all in favour of bypasses. Mr. Kelleher: Most members of the Green Party continually object to road developments, wherever they are proposed, regardless of their merit or whether a site of historic importance is nearby. Mr. Eamon Ryan: That is not true. We have called for the Ennis bypass for years and there are many similar examples. That is not what the Government is doing. Mr. Kelleher: There have been footprints on our island for millennia. No matter where a road is proposed, a site of significant historical importance will be discovered and it may not necessarily be a national monument. If every site of historical importance was designated, a field would not be ploughed nor a motorway built. Mr. Eamon Ryan: This legislation covers national monuments. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Deputy Kelleher, without interruption. Mr. Kelleher: I refer to sites of historical importance, including the sites of national monuments. We have a duty to move forward in an understanding manner. The Carrickmines project was taken to the courts. The courts uphold the laws passed by us. The court made its decision on the basis of outdated precedents and laws. The Government is trying to introduce legislation and debate it in a positive manner. Deputy Eamon Ryan referred to democratic accountability. It has been decided the Minister will make decisions. The current Minister is democratically elected but the Deputy has castigated him for giving the Minister of the day the necessary powers. The Deputy gives out about the National Roads Authority and other bodies but the minute the Government made provision for decisions to be made by a Minister who is democratically accountable to the people, he complained. We must have a fair and rational debate and the Deputy cannot cherry pick issues to suit his agenda. Mr. Eamon Ryan: With regard to Carrickmines, the Minister ignored the plans of the local authority. That was undemocratic. Mr. Kelleher: However, when the Minister brought forward proposals to ensure democratic accountability whereby no outside quango would make the final decision, the Deputy complained. That is difficult to understand considering the Green Party continually states democratic accountability is the most important issue. Rezoning is also important. House prices are causing major difficulties. The Green Party objects to every housing proposal, including social housing developments. While the party does not object to the principle of social housing, it will object to its location because of a lack of infrastructural development. While I understand that, we have a duty to house our own people. Mr. Eamon Ryan: I fully support the development of fixed, significantly high-density communities close to the centre of Dublin . There is significant potential for the development of Dublin and other high quality infield housing developments. That is the way forward, rather than developing the remainder of the green belt on the outskirts of Dublin , where the proper infrastructure is not in place. That is our positive vision of the future. Mr. Kelleher: I thank the Deputy. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: It would be helpful if Deputy Kelleher addressed the Chair rather than an individual Deputy. Mr. Kelleher: It is important to hear the views of Opposition Members. They should be able to live by them. As soon as proposals for high rise or affordable developments in Dublin city that will allow for proper development of rail and bus transport, which the Green Party supports, are made, there is an objection. Objections to proposals for developments such as golf courses in rural areas are made automatically, regardless of the merits of the proposals and without consulting local communities. I refer to developments in County Mayo and Doonbeg, County Clare . The local communities are supportive of the developments but people who may not even be members of the communities continually object. That is difficult to accept in the context of local democratic accountability. Local communities and their local authorities should make decisions on these developments. However, elements will ensure an objection is made and it will be fought in an aggressive manner without taking account of the needs of local communities. While I accept the Government must ensure the past is protected, we also have a fundamental duty to address issues affecting our future. I refer to Farmleigh House and Government Buildings . Significant objections were made in the mid-1980s to their preservation when it was proposed. Commentators said it was a waste of money and the funding should have been spent elsewhere. If we adopted that attitude, nothing would be preserved. However, Opposition Members constantly say public funds are being wasted when such historic buildings are being refurbished. We are leaving treasures behind us and future generations can look back and acknowledge that, at the beginning of the 21st century, we did something positive to ensure our heritage and significant historic buildings were protected. More often than not, people lodge objections to the preservation of these buildings and they make political capital in the short term. They maintain they have a vision for the future while protecting the past. It is cynical of those people to object out of one side of their mouths about expending funds on developments such as the plaza on O'Connell Street in Dublin . The street has major historic significance for the city and the State. A proposal was made to enhance the street and make it more dynamic so that people could enjoy it. Then fellows arrived on the street to chain themselves to trees as a political stunt. This is a positive development which people will enjoy for many years. If the Green Party wants to be taken seriously, it must recognise people living in mainstream society who want to live in a vibrant economic community while, at the same time, protecting our culture and heritage. Those two concepts have not been married by the party. Mr. Eamon Ryan: They have not been married by the Government. That is what we want. Mr. Kelleher: The party has been exposed because most of its public representatives, particularly in the European Parliament, have objected to almost every proposal that has been brought forward in this regard. They were found out in Dublin in the recent election. Other parties who also object to every proposals will also be found out. Mr. Eamon Ryan: Can the Deputy explain his party's failure in the recent election? Mr. Kelleher: We will explain that following the next general election. The Opposition should not take comfort from the recent elections. I compliment the Minister and the Department on acknowledging the significant traffic problem in Dublin city. The construction of the M50 should enhance the quality of life of communities along the commuter belt as it will be easier for people to travel to work and to other parts of Ireland . People want to travel and to enjoy a weekend break, whether in Rosslare or in the west. Deputy Eamon Ryan is basically saying people should not travel. Mr. Eamon Ryan: I am not. Mr. Kelleher: That is effectively what he is saying. Mr. Eamon Ryan: No, I am not. Mr. Kelleher: He is saying to the people of Dublin that he is sorry but they should not be allowed to travel to the west, to west Cork----- Mr. Eamon Ryan: I want them to have a choice. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Deputy Ryan should cease interrupting and Deputy Kelleher should address the Chair. Mr. Kelleher: I can safely say that west Cork is a beautiful area but if we are realistic, there will not be a railway line to Bantry in the short term. Whether or not Paddy Sheehan, a former Deputy, wants one, it will not happen. In the meantime, we should have a quality road network to the west so that Dublin people can enjoy it and vice versa so that people from the west can come to the capital city which is not only Deputy Eamon Ryan's capital, but is our capital also. We should be able to enjoy the capital city at the weekend or enjoy a coffee in a plaza-type atmosphere in O'Connell Street , yet most of the proposals have been objected to by the Green Party time and again. Mr. Eamon Ryan: That is not true. Mr. Kelleher: I commend the Bill. While we must have democratic accountability, the minute it is proposed, it is objected to. There is the accusation that power is being given to the Minister to make cynical decisions. I do not understand the logic behind that accusation. The National Roads Authority is attacked for not being democratic but when the Minister brings forward proposals to ensure accountability in the Parliament, there are objections. I wish the Minister well. A dynamic programme of public transport, including rail, bus and roads infrastructure, will be rolled out over the coming years. Mr. Eamon Ryan: It is not happening. There is a ratio of 4:1 in favour of roads in current spending. Mr. Kelleher: I commend the Bill and castigate the cynicism of some of those who have spoken. |